tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post7499821781380700376..comments2024-03-06T17:38:03.109+13:00Comments on Bluestocking <i>Blue</i>: Crossdressing and advertisingViviennehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06137595207723645418noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-15110074626869696622012-05-17T06:29:41.418+12:002012-05-17T06:29:41.418+12:00Sorry if I misunderstood you at all. I'd stil...Sorry if I misunderstood you at all. I'd still disagree that there are people who are not fully male or female. However, if we want to talk about overlap, I'd fully agree. All of us overlap in many ways in our genetics and behaviors, whether men or women, because we are all human. We are far more alike as men and women than we are different! So yes, I'd go for plenty of overlap. But not people that are neither fully male nor female.Thorin25https://www.blogger.com/profile/14491694029264437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-44820836174392880632012-05-16T06:40:04.942+12:002012-05-16T06:40:04.942+12:00Hey Thorin. Thanks for posting. I'm not sugges...Hey Thorin. Thanks for posting. I'm not suggesting there is a third sex! If you read above, what I am saying is that male and female are not separated by some impassable gulf; instead they overlap. Whichever way you look at it, genetically, histologically, developmentally or even (in my case) behaviourally, there are some people who cannot be assigned to only one sex. I am not suggesting those people are purple (some mysterious third sex), but instead grey (neither fully male nor female).Viviennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137595207723645418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-47525942115235799272012-05-16T01:29:28.037+12:002012-05-16T01:29:28.037+12:00In general on this one, I have to agree with Robyn...In general on this one, I have to agree with Robyn. A person is born as a male or female. In rare cases they may be born as a male or female with a genetic abnormality, and that might even make them look vastly different, but that doesn't make them some kind of third sex.Thorin25https://www.blogger.com/profile/14491694029264437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-20876717033461575512012-04-29T15:21:41.070+12:002012-04-29T15:21:41.070+12:00What is there to reconcile? Intersex is purely con...What is there to reconcile? Intersex is purely congenital and is determined by examining the chromosomes. However, there is no chromosome test that determines if one is CD, TV, TS, TG, or some combination. Intersex and CD/TG/TS are independent. Certainly, there might be some CDs who are Intersex and some people who have an Intersex condition might be crossdressers. <br /><br />And I am not sure how Intersex can blur the boundary between male and female... There are a small number of very specific Intersex conditions, each of them having different impacts, some of them very different. So the 1 in 1000 baby would be 1 in 20 or 1 in 30 (whatever the number of types of Intersex conditions there are). There would be 1 in 20000 or 1 in 30000 chance that someone would have a specific Intersex condition. <br /><br />You look at people and see a spectrum of sex and gender as M <--> F with Intersex blurring everything between the M and the F. I see people in two different trees, the M (XY) tree and the F (XX) tree. Intersex conditions are not other trees between these two. XYY is just a branch on the XY tree and it is different from most of the other branches on the tree. The same is true for XX Intersex conditions.<br /><br />Whatever tree, whatever branch a person might be on says nothing about how a person looks, their gender identity, or their sexual attraction. That is a completely separate discussion...Robyn Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00655968146251274730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-35623853449951310152012-04-26T20:24:26.514+12:002012-04-26T20:24:26.514+12:00Thanks for posting Robyn.
I think intersex condit...Thanks for posting Robyn.<br /><br />I think intersex conditions _are_ a blurring of the boundary between male and female. Whatever way you cut it, there are always some people who don't quite fit into just one category. An individual with XY karyotype would, by your definition above, be a man. On the other hand, that person would be indistinguishable from a normal woman by any test short of a karyotype, if they had testicular feminisation. Would you call that individual a man, or even a male? I know I wouldn't! It would strike me as absurd.<br /><br />It's a bit more complicated with the Y chromosome. It's a lot smaller than the X chromosome (in fact, it's the smallest human chromosome). The X chromosome is required for the formation of a fetus; if you have an embryo with a YY karyotype it doesn't develop into a baby but instead a mis-shapen, semi-malignant mush called a hydatidiform mole, which is, in effect, a grotesquely abnormal placenta. It needs to be removed or it can actually threaten the mother's life. Thankfully, as you say, it's very rare, and it's very responsive to medication. But that's why there isn't anybody alive with a YY karyotype.<br /><br />You only need one X chromosome, however. There are people with only one sex chromosome, the XO karyotype. This is known as Turner syndrome (and they are all female). Most people have one (XY) or two (XX) but some people have three (XXX or even XXXY) or even more, and that doesn't seem to cause too many problems (not like trisomy 21, Down syndrome, or trisomy 18 or 13, which are even worse).<br /><br />Intersex conditions are not that uncommon. If 1 in 1000 babies has genitalia which can't reliably be assigned to either "boy" or "girl" at birth, then that's four kids a year at my local hospital, and probably yours too. Those kids might need treatment or even surgery to develop "normally", but it can be pretty tough on the parents for a while: "We were thinking of Andrew but now it might have to be Andrea".<br /><br />I hope you will forgive my saying so, but you seem remarkably rigid in your categories for someone who celebrates crossdressing as much as you do! How do you reconcile the views above with your crossdressing?Viviennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137595207723645418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-43410848185926114622012-04-26T09:01:18.546+12:002012-04-26T09:01:18.546+12:00Nature defines males as having XY chromosomes and ...Nature defines males as having XY chromosomes and females having XX chromosomes. Our primary and secondary sexual characteristics are completely dependent on those chromosomes. The fact that Intersex conditions exist do not negate this fact. They are not a blurring of male and female and they are not new or different sexes. Even though there are people with XXY or XYY chromosomes, there isn't anyone with YY chromosomes. If Intersex were truly a third sex or a blurring of sexes, there should be lots of people that are YY. Intersex conditions occur because of congenital defects or mutations that causes things to go wrong during fertilization or shortly thereafter. Many of these conditions are repaired soon after birth. Even though Intersex conditions do occur, they are very small in number.Robyn Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00655968146251274730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-10303475167494468132012-04-25T17:18:15.700+12:002012-04-25T17:18:15.700+12:00Intersex is a difficult thing to nail down. How do...Intersex is a difficult thing to nail down. How do you define "male" and "female"? If it's in simple behaviour and dress, we all know men who dress and behave like women, and women who dress and behave like men. So that's no good.<br /><br />If it's in the presence of certain body tissues, some people have both testicular and ovarian tissue present at the same time inside their bodies. Some people born with a penis can go on to develop breasts and hip fat at puberty.<br /><br />If you are looking at genes, a person with the karyotype (genes) XX becomes a female, and a person with XY becomes a male. But some people have the karyotype XXY (Klinefelter syndrome), which seems to supply both. Some people have XYY, so-called "supermales" (though they aren't really that), and some people born XY (the normal male karyotype) have a condition called testicular feminisation syndrome, which means their cells are not sensitive to the androgenic effects of testosterone. These individuals are indistinguishable from ordinary women, except that they are infertile, and unless you karyotype them.<br /><br />There is of course male and female. But they are black and white. Someone who is intersex isn't purple, but grey. And there are plenty of grey people out there!Viviennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137595207723645418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-25625625764354006052012-04-25T10:06:43.557+12:002012-04-25T10:06:43.557+12:00A person with an Intersex condition is still eithe...A person with an Intersex condition is still either male or female. It is not like there is a third or fourth sex... There are chromosome irregularities that mess up the physical sexual attributes and internal organs, sometimes threatening the life of the baby depending on the condition. Sadly, many Intersex conditions are infertile.Robyn Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00655968146251274730noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-42224351836930284102012-04-19T04:12:02.942+12:002012-04-19T04:12:02.942+12:00To clarify about androgynous people. I'm not ...To clarify about androgynous people. I'm not being down on strong women or men who aren't super muscular or something like that. I'm talking about people who are purposely trying to appear in such a way as you don't know whether they are men or women.<br /><br />Those are tough questions about intersexed people. I compare them to people born with genetic defects or those born blind or disabled. They are still God's precious creatures loved by him. They are still people made in God's image. But the Fall into sin in Genesis 3 has marred all of creation including all people. When Adam and Eve brought sin into the world, it affected everything. So all of us have imperfect bodies in so many countless ways. Some people's bodily imperfections are much more visible than others. It's easier to see a blind person than to see my personal bodily abnormality which I've struggled with all my life. Also let me make very clear I don't mean that it was any person's specific sins that caused them to be born blind or intersexed. We are all sinful. But these conditions are the result of living in a fallen broken messed up world that we are waiting for God to fix. (see John 9)<br /><br />So these people were made by God just as I am. But just like I don't call my physical abnormality "good" since it has caused me pain, I don't call their intersexual condition "good" since it has caused them pain. We do what we can to deal with those problems. But they are problems, and they are not good, and we look forward to Jesus' return to this earth and the resurrection of the dead when he will raise us to new perfected bodies that are not marred anymore by disease, genetic defects, or painful abnormalities.<br /><br />If God is all powerful, which he is, then that means he at least "allowed" people to be born that way. But allowing it does not mean it's a "good" thing. God also allowed the holocaust and September 11th to take place, but those were not good either. We are getting into theodicy here and the problem of evil. I'm not going to explain why God allows these things. My point is just that intersexed conditions are no different from being born blind or deaf. It's not good but they are still God's beloved creatures.Thorin25https://www.blogger.com/profile/14491694029264437630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-60635539378176738032012-04-18T21:32:05.716+12:002012-04-18T21:32:05.716+12:00Yep. Crossdressing isn't funny. It's too c...Yep. Crossdressing isn't funny. It's too close to the bone for me. And poking fun at grotesque crossdressers is just cruelty.<br />Some crossdressers are beautiful. I don't find that deceptive or disturbing, although it makes me envious (see my post Green Eyed Monster). Likewise I can say that Andrej Pejic is beautiful as a man or as a woman. When he is made up like a woman, he is dazzling; more beautiful than many genetic women. When he is trying to be a man, he looks androgynous, but he still looks beautiful (IMHO). I don't think there is anything inherently repellant about androgynous people.<br />If we were created by God as males and females, how do you explain intersex conditions like Klinefelter's syndrome or testicular feminisation? In these conditions, people may have sexual characteristics in between the traditional male and female archetypes. About 1 in 1000 babies born has genitalia which can't immediately be assigned as "boy" or "girl". Where did these conditions come from, if not made by God? (I suspect my answer might differ from yours!)Viviennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06137595207723645418noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4642548439896244587.post-49577318353623053742012-04-18T06:52:34.869+12:002012-04-18T06:52:34.869+12:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Thorin25http://healingcd.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com